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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from australia for science and reason

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number

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723 for the 14th of august 2022 richard

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saunders coming to you from sydney

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australia coming up on the show this

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week i interview author john guy

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about his new book called

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think straight

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should try to do is think clearly think

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logically

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think straight

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following that it's the book of tim with

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tim menum a bit of a different book of

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tim this week i went over to skeptics

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headquarters here in sydney

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to uh have a chat with tim about the

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australian skeptics bent spoon award

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our annual

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award for what we consider to be

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nonsense

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far-fetched implausible scams that sort

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of thing and speaking of tim mendom

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after that we hear from adrian hill who

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reads the newsletter

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written by tim mandum it all works you

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see thank you adrian once again for your

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wonderful

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news

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report reading

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after that it's another skeptical poem

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by the uh late great jim wilshere

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and this week jim will be reading his

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poem bachelor

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of seance

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then to round off the show we dive back

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into those digital newspaper archives

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from around the world this week we're

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looking for references to a man i've met

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on a

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on several occasions

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ray hyman professor ray hyman a man i

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admire very much

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now i said in last week's episode

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this week i would be bringing you a

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report about mind body spirit or mind

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buddy walt well owing to scheduling

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and juggling

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segments and episodes i've put that back

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a week until next week

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i hope you're doing okay out there

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sometimes you all have those aches and

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pains

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those twinges i get i get um

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every six months or something like

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something weird like that i'll throw my

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back out and by that i mean i

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i'm a little nerve that gets pinched

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in my back and i'm sort of walk funny

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for a while

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i remember some some years ago i tried

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to pick up something incorrectly too

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heavy and for the next two days i was

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more or less confined to bed

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could hardly move pinched nerves are no

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fun at all so i do sympathize

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if that's what's happening

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to you

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and if you're feeling unwell at the

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moment maybe the skeptic zone can give

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you an hour's worth of uh

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interesting

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escapism

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but now it's time for me to run

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downstairs

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and see if i have some

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well

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i wonder what you would have

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if you were to run down the stairs when

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you're making a podcast

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what would you have

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while you're thinking about that

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and while i'm thinking about that

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[Music]

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well folks critical thinking straight

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thinking

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this is something we always talk about

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here on the skeptic zone and something

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i've been teaching now for well many

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years trying to impart to people how

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important is to be a critical thinker

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but what does that mean

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joining me on the line from colorado is

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a man who's

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put together a book about critical

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thinking called think straight it's john

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guy hello john how's it going i'm doing

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very well it's raining in sydney you

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wouldn't believe it in fact there's a

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bit of a storm happening while we talk

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so hopefully the the connection doesn't

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doesn't stop but let's get uh let's get

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right down to the point of this you've

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written this book what inspired you to

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write a book about something we all we

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all like to think about which of course

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is uh straight thinking or critical

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thinking

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um well i think the original plan uh in

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writing this book was to kind of just

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develop a

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a basic curriculum for

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um teaching rudimentary critical

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thinking skills

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and um i i gotta admit that i completely

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failed in that

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in that pursuit because

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um i didn't write that what i ended up

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writing was a 400 page book

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covering about as much as i could

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possibly fit into it

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with the word allowance from my

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publisher

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so you got a bit carried away i got very

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very much carried away

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and

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okay well let's get back to this whole

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idea of

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critical thinking because i noticed in

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some of the information

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that you sort of touch on or some of the

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information about the book at least

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touching on people we might consider

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great critical thinkings great critical

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thinkers like james randy and so on

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uh

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to what extent were you inspired by what

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we might call the pop culture critical

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thinkers

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um i really liked uh james randy was a

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big uh influence on me

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as well as other uh popularizers of the

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genre uh michael shermer

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i really got into uh carl sagan

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as far as his you know he has a lot of

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books on um on space and astronomy and

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he does a really good job of

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incorporating critical thinking into his

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work and a lot of that was was extremely

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inspiring for me i also really enjoyed

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uh richard dawkins books um

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so just you know science in general is

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kind of what led me towards uh critical

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thinking and i think you share this view

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with me as well is that you know science

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is not just about you know basic facts

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you know what you know what is you know

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how does the scientific method work and

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and you know what are the results of of

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lab work and and so on it's more about

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the

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and how it's conducted

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and how we can rely on his results and

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when we should and when we shouldn't so

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i i got i got really into the uh into

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the weeds on exactly what it means to be

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scientifically literate and that's kind

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of what

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going throughout writing the book fair

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enough fair enough too now tell me about

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jargon i mean you sort of touched on it

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there i mean science is more than just

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doing experiments just in a cold manner

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but also you you're gonna talk about or

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mention this jargon why isn't it

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important to look at this issue or do

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you think that being too scientific

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maybe using too much jargon detracts

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sometimes from people's understanding of

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science i in my experience i've found

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that learning learning jargon is one of

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the biggest hurdles to

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um to learning any subject whether it's

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science or

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mechanics or what have you even like

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when i started learning about the brain

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and and you know i mean how the brain

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works and what all the different areas

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are and what everything is called i mean

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learning the jargon is like a huge part

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of it

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yeah for sure sometimes um

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sometimes sciency stuff is very um

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jargon-laden and one of the things i did

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in my book is anytime i'm introducing um

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what i think is a term that

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uh somebody who's not very familiar with

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science or critical thinking might not

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have come across before is i laid out

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kind of a vocabulary builder in the

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beginning of each chapter and introduced

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it with a definition and then later on

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highlighted that term so that when it's

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being used in context they can

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understand and refer back to the

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definition

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right yes pro probably a very good idea

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i mean you can't help that pick up

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jargon along the way i guess i know more

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jargon than i really

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if i thought about it i must know more

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than i than i

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would think about from day to day terms

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you hear again and again and again but

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of course when you get into the heavy

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sciences

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uh

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jargon is very important by the time you

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reach that stage but i can certainly

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understand how it could possibly put you

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off the basics of a of critical thinking

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now let's talk about something another

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topic that we love to talk about here on

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the skeptic zone which is conspiracies

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conspiracy theory and and

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uh critical thinking and we like to

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think well there must be a lack of

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critical thinking if people believe in

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conspiracy theories right sure yeah uh i

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actually have um

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far throughout the the manuscript are

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multiple references to conspiracy

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ideation and different conspiracy

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theories and um different logical

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fallacies associated with uh the

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tendency to believe in conspiracies but

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my final chapter is actually on just

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conspiracies it was actually i

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probably the funnest chapter i wrote

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i've really enjoyed

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uh quite a bit because there's i mean

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conspiracy

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ideation is such a fascinating concept

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and like you said it's it's not just it

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doesn't just boil down to a matter of

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lacking critical thinking skills because

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there's a whole lot that goes into it

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between you know prior beliefs and

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ideologies and uh the people who you're

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surrounded by and what culture you're in

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all those contribute to whether or not

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you're susceptible to believing in

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conspiracy theories absolutely and of

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course

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i mean

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people have often said to the skeptics

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or in in my experience anyway that we

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spend too much time worrying about in

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insubstantial things like conspiracy

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theories but we saw only in the last

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couple of years especially in the united

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states how conspiracy theories well

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let's talk about the the attacks on the

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capital on the 6th of january

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led largely by conspiracy theories how

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they can do real damage and maybe maybe

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if some more of those people had read

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your book

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or

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will read your book they might be

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better equipped to battle conspiracy

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theories

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i i definitely agree with that i think

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that conspiracy theories i i share the

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opinion of of many skeptics that there's

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no such thing as a harmless

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pseudoscience and conspiracy theories

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fall into that same category there's

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there's

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if you believe um joseph yuzinski does a

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lot of work on on conspiracy theories

286
00:10:49,269 --> 00:10:46,480
and and he's pretty well established

287
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:49,279
that if you are um if you believe in one

288
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:52,000
conspiracy you're more likely to believe

289
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:53,920
in multiple conspiracies and there's

290
00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:56,800
other research that uh that um outside

291
00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:59,360
of uzinski's work that is um that has

292
00:11:03,509 --> 00:11:01,040
kind of established this

293
00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:03,519
so if if you take the you know

294
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:07,120
conspiracy about you know jfk or you

295
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:10,160
know 911 truthers or uh you know

296
00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:11,680
something to that effect

297
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:13,839
if if you have a tendency to believe

298
00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:15,600
something like that you were probably

299
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:17,360
more likely to believe that

300
00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:18,720
um you know

301
00:11:23,350 --> 00:11:20,480
pfizer is putting microchips in their

302
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:23,360
vaccines or you know climate change is a

303
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:25,920
hoax that's being you know forced on us

304
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:28,880
by a scientific elite of liberals who

305
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:31,360
have some agenda to shut down big oil or

306
00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:33,360
you know whatever the whatever the more

307
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:35,440
impactful conspiracy is

308
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:37,440
um so i definitely think that it's

309
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:39,279
important to understand

310
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:42,560
um kind of the psychology behind why uh

311
00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:47,040
conspiracy theories form and how to um

312
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,120
talk people out of them or at least kind

313
00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:51,360
of walk walk through the conspiracy

314
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:53,120
using the tools of critical thinking

315
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:56,000
such as logic and empiricism and reason

316
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:58,000
to try to help people understand

317
00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:00,079
one of the things i put in my book is

318
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:02,000
things are not always as they seem but

319
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:04,079
they're not always not as they see

320
00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:05,200
sometimes

321
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:10,310
sounds like a fascinating read i look

322
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,639
forward to having a look at your book uh

323
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:14,720
but in the meantime the book is called

324
00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:17,279
think straight it's by john guy and uh

325
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:19,680
who is your publisher uh prometheus

326
00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:22,000
prometheus of course our

327
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:23,200
uh

328
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:24,880
well-known um

329
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:26,800
publisher for books about critical

330
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:28,639
thinking i've got many books on my shelf

331
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:31,120
as i glance over there by prometheus

332
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,839
publishing and where can people find out

333
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:35,360
more about that book where can they go

334
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:38,880
on the on the inter-tubes they can go on

335
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:41,519
amazon.com and search for think straight

336
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:43,839
and owner's manual for the mine

337
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:45,920
they can go on barnes and noble under

338
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,399
the same title they can get it on a

339
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,399
roman and littlefield's website pretty

340
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,320
much anywhere where you buy your books

341
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,240
people can get it sounds good to me

342
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:56,160
folks i'll add a link to the book

343
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:58,079
probably on amazon on this week's show

344
00:13:02,710 --> 00:13:00,880
notes well john guy thank you very much

345
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:02,720
and uh maybe

346
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:04,880
maybe who knows maybe there'll be a part

347
00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:05,760
two or

348
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:08,720
another volume coming our way i i am

349
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,040
actually working on another project um

350
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:13,680
uh i'm working on a chapter

351
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:17,040
uh on energy medicine for a book series

352
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:20,320
that is on investigating uh the effects

353
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:22,880
of pseudoscience in clinical psychology

354
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:25,440
so it's a series that's um being edited

355
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:29,200
by stephen hupp and um jonathan saya

356
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,680
so uh that is in the works and that is

357
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,320
on the way and you can also find some of

358
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:36,959
my writings on thinkingispower.com

359
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:39,040
thinking is power.com

360
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:41,199
that's with melanie trisik king right

361
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,560
yeah that's right i've been writing for

362
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:44,480
her for a while now excellent she was

363
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:46,480
only a guest on the show a few weeks

364
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:48,320
back well john guy all the way from

365
00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:50,720
colorado thank you very much thanks for

366
00:14:11,430 --> 00:13:52,710
having me i appreciate it

367
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:13,750
dr harriet hall md

368
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:16,639
known to thousands as the skeptoc a

369
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:19,120
retired family physician and former air

370
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:20,880
force flight surgeon

371
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,199
she writes about medicine so-called

372
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:25,600
complementary and alternative medicine

373
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:29,279
science quackery and critical thinking

374
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:31,839
harriet now has a free course a series

375
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:34,399
of 10 video lectures on science-based

376
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:37,279
medicine and alternative medicine

377
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:39,279
the videos and an accompanying course

378
00:14:42,829 --> 00:14:41,519
guide can be found by following the link

379
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:42,839
at

380
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:45,279
skepdoc.info by visiting

381
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:52,949
educational dash modules dot html

382
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,279
topics covered in the series are

383
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:57,120
science-based medicine versus

384
00:15:03,829 --> 00:15:00,320
evidence-based medicine what is cam

385
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:03,839
chiropractic acupuncture homeopathy

386
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:06,320
naturopathy and herbal medicine

387
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:08,240
energy medicine miscellaneous

388
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,600
alternatives pitfalls in research and

389
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:14,160
science-based medicine in the media and

390
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,920
politics

391
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:17,760
harriet covers each topic in a

392
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:20,240
matter-of-fact no-nonsense way that's

393
00:15:27,070 --> 00:15:22,800
sure to educate and entertain

394
00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:27,080
skeptdoc dot info

395
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:41,519
[Music]

396
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:42,880
and now

397
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:45,060
a reading from the book of tim

398
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:47,759
[Music]

399
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:50,570
with tim menden

400
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:57,990
i'm here with tim mandum tim we're going

401
00:16:01,590 --> 00:15:59,279
to be talking about the australian

402
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:01,600
skeptics ben spoon award because we are

403
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:03,600
uh sniffing around for more nominations

404
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,279
i think we are steven around is actually

405
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:06,800
quite appropriate it is

406
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,160
sniffing

407
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:10,720
yeah we've opened up uh the the phones

408
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,560
people people can phone him so they can

409
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,040
phone in speak to an operator preferably

410
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:17,440
not you can uh email us actually yeah uh

411
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:19,440
we're opening up nominations for the

412
00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:20,800
annual ben spooner well they've been

413
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,839
open for a while but we're just

414
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:24,000
encouraging people to yeah yeah yeah we

415
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:25,279
do it all the time we encourage people

416
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:27,360
you can we can encourage people we

417
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:28,959
encourage you to bend your spoons and

418
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,240
send them in no it's not that sort of

419
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:32,480
spoon isn't that really no the spoon is

420
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:34,560
of course uh it's real it's really

421
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,990
very heavy because it's made out of

422
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:42,079
gopher wood from noah's ark yes with a

423
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:44,720
spoon um bent by yuri himself actually

424
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,240
when he wasn't aware of it

425
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:48,880
but he does that he does uh but yeah the

426
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:51,519
spoon has been going since 1982.

427
00:16:56,430 --> 00:16:54,320
yeah and we've awarded that every year

428
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:56,440
uh apart from

429
00:17:00,629 --> 00:16:58,399
1988 i think it was when nothing

430
00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:00,639
happened yeah it was a boring year

431
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:02,000
but the spoon is awarded to the

432
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,600
perpetrator the most preposterous piece

433
00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:05,679
of paranormal or pseudoscientific people

434
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,559
before

435
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:08,480
as uh barry williams

436
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:09,919
like to say

437
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:11,919
but uh so yeah we give it to someone

438
00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:13,679
from who's performed something

439
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:15,280
particularly uh

440
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,120
noteworthy outrageous um during the

441
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:21,600
year from one convention to the next so

442
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:23,120
we're looking for people

443
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:25,199
or companies who make outrageous claims

444
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:27,439
or try to put a shock on somebody or i

445
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:28,720
don't know what i mean what do we have

446
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:30,160
to say something silly yeah something

447
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,799
silly we've had in the past people who

448
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,640
claimed that the colossus of rhodes

449
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:36,480
would be discovered in australia yeah

450
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:37,840
yeah yep and that was a good one we had

451
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,240
a psychic dentist what was the psyche he

452
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:42,720
actually would come and fix your your

453
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:44,880
decay tooth decay yeah psychically he

454
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,400
came actually from america but he was

455
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,240
performing here on a tour

456
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,880
and uh he then had to go back to america

457
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:52,880
before the teeth were fixed but yeah

458
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:55,440
psychic dentist that's a good one

459
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:56,559
there was another one the melbourne

460
00:18:02,710 --> 00:17:59,200
metropolitan board of works brought out

461
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:02,720
an american psychic to locate heritage

462
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:04,160
buildings with the foundations of them

463
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:05,679
yeah and all the buildings she found

464
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:07,760
looked like american buildings american

465
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:09,200
barns and things nothing like australia

466
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,280
people say peter brock the famous racing

467
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:14,080
car driver before he is

468
00:18:18,789 --> 00:18:16,400
based on organ energy yes which already

469
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:18,799
had nothing in it i think

470
00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:20,000
not a good thing yeah that's a good

471
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:21,200
thing and they all went through all

472
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:23,600
sorts of various technologies and uh

473
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,039
that's peter brock now that's peter

474
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:27,760
right his spirit is flying

475
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:31,280
uh various people like uh the homeopathy

476
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:33,760
plus outfit they won uh yes as did the

477
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,280
australian vaccination network that's

478
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:37,440
right yes um so you know some of them

479
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:38,480
were silly some of them are quite

480
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:40,400
serious the abc's one of the couple of

481
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,280
times three times i think and uh sbs has

482
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:45,440
won it that's sbs tv

483
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:47,120
for medical stuff most medical stuff

484
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:48,960
yeah quite a few uh newspapers and

485
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:51,760
things that runner um the uh of course

486
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:54,640
uh mike willis michael is the signs from

487
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:56,720
god yes well he actually won a positive

488
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:58,400
award and the name

489
00:19:02,230 --> 00:18:59,919
he's the only person who've done that he

490
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:02,240
um he was he's a good well-respected

491
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:04,240
journalist but he was very religious man

492
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,320
so he came across somebody displaying

493
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,320
stigmata and he decided that was real

494
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:10,799
yes i think he was facing the shadows of

495
00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:13,840
mortality at the time actually um

496
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:15,679
well he only died a few years ago but he

497
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,000
got he won the bench burn

498
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:19,919
some decades ago it wasn't that long ago

499
00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:22,080
but i mean uh it was sort of

500
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:23,840
farewell i think i think we can do some

501
00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:25,679
research on the 90s i think you won that

502
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:26,400
was it

503
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:28,880
later anyway anyway anyway

504
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:30,960
so what

505
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:33,679
but we have had other people i mean uh

506
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,320
sad to say the head of the csiro yeah

507
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:38,720
got it once for proposing dowsing as a

508
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:40,799
and dowsing might be in the offing again

509
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:42,559
uh we're we're looking at possibly

510
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:44,799
nominating somebody who's come to our

511
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:46,240
attention recently

512
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:48,160
possibly i think we should we should

513
00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:50,000
nominate this person but of course um

514
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:52,720
yeah probably the most famous winner of

515
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,039
the ben spoon has been quite recently

516
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:57,200
and the only person to have won it twice

517
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:58,000
yeah

518
00:20:01,750 --> 00:19:59,600
quite a noble achievement actually pete

519
00:20:04,149 --> 00:20:01,760
evans or paleo pete as we like to call

520
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:04,159
him for his magic flashing light device

521
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,840
that was the second one yeah yeah he's

522
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:07,200
his flashing light thing that looked

523
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:09,360
like a disco like you can put in your

524
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:10,159
home

525
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:11,760
that cue at all sorts of well he got

526
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:13,840
into trouble for um

527
00:20:17,950 --> 00:20:16,000
proposing this device could help with uh

528
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:17,960
covert didn't he yeah he did

529
00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:20,640
yeah yeah his previous one was of course

530
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:23,120
his uh bone broth recipe for children

531
00:20:28,470 --> 00:20:25,520
for babies right which was uh

532
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,480
quite deadly and uh he he's published

533
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:30,559
withdrew that the book that

534
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:32,960
included that recipe now pete's still

535
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,120
around uh not quite as successful as he

536
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:37,600
was but um and i'm sure the ben spring

537
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:39,600
played a major part in that sure

538
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:42,080
now people can look at all the past

539
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:44,640
winners of the ben spoon award and also

540
00:20:49,029 --> 00:20:47,440
nominate somebody uh we we say it's

541
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:49,039
really for australia isn't it somebody

542
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:50,480
has to do it really it has to be in

543
00:20:54,149 --> 00:20:51,600
australia yeah you have to be an

544
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:54,159
australian company or an individual or

545
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:56,880
something like that and if you

546
00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:58,400
you know if you decide that these people

547
00:21:02,390 --> 00:20:59,840
are making an outrageous claim

548
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:02,400
paranormal or pseudoscientific

549
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:04,400
maybe free energy that was a winner one

550
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,880
year a free energy energy device which

551
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,120
didn't work funny that which one did

552
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:11,200
that they could nominate right they can

553
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:13,200
they can they can just go onto our

554
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,000
website which is skeptics.com.iu

555
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:18,080
look up the uh about i think it's on the

556
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:20,080
awards section there yeah and there's

557
00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:21,760
the ben spoon award there so you just

558
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:23,679
click on that you can see the history of

559
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:26,320
the uh benspoon what it's all about and

560
00:21:29,909 --> 00:21:27,760
click on a link to make a nomination

561
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:29,919
yeah so keep your eyes out people in

562
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:31,600
australia if you find someone like that

563
00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:33,760
uh let us know i mean

564
00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:36,559
let us know we can you know size up your

565
00:21:39,669 --> 00:21:38,240
nomination maybe we won't think it's

566
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:39,679
appropriate maybe you think it's great

567
00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:41,360
we don't know you well yeah with some

568
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:42,640
nominations right but we can't be

569
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:44,720
slanderous about this but no no don't

570
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:47,200
nominate somebody just for for the wrong

571
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:48,799
reasons enough yes i mean and and yeah

572
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:50,559
it has to be a skeptical issue really

573
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,200
that pseudoscience or or paranormal as

574
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:55,520
you say yeah so but yeah by all means

575
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:58,240
nominate them and uh you can deadline is

576
00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:00,480
probably early november all right and

577
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:02,080
the winner will be announced at uh

578
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:04,000
national convention just don't nominate

579
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:05,679
us because people always do that and we

580
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:07,600
know yeah they do

581
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:13,190
i'd like to win our 100 thousand dollar

582
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:15,600
prize for paranormal

583
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:17,280
you'd rather win the benchman i actually

584
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:18,720
got it with me so

585
00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:20,400
i can actually easily put my name on the

586
00:22:30,990 --> 00:22:22,540
plug

587
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:33,990
[Music]

588
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:36,480
i'm a psychic my name is psychic carey

589
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:38,720
i'm ross oh what a pleasure to meet you

590
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:40,320
of course i knew your name was ross

591
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:42,080
because i'm a psychic but please take a

592
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:43,919
seat well i was hoping we could talk

593
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:46,640
about talk about my podcast podcast yes

594
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:49,679
i know it's called oh no ross and carey

595
00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:52,000
yes we investigate from science

596
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:53,919
spirituality and claims of the

597
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:55,840
paranormal normal you took the words

598
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,679
right out of my mouth yes this whole

599
00:23:01,750 --> 00:22:59,919
podcast it sounds like it's been a real

600
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:01,760
challenge for you lately actually it's a

601
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,919
lot of fun yes exactly because it's so

602
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:05,919
fun i don't know how you do this will be

603
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,440
75

604
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:09,600
okay that seems fair oh no ross and

605
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:13,280
carrie at maximumfun.org.org

606
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:15,530
i have a gift

607
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:33,360
[Music]

608
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:35,600
hello everyone this is adrian hill from

609
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:37,360
canada here to read the highlights from

610
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:40,240
the australian skeptics newsletter

611
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:41,919
there might be a few more giggles than

612
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,640
usual since there seems to be some extra

613
00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:46,400
silliness this week

614
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:49,679
this is newsletter number 154 you can

615
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:51,520
subscribe to this newsletter and get it

616
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:53,840
delivered to your inbox every other week

617
00:24:04,870 --> 00:23:56,400
complete with links to all the stories

618
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,269
but now let's see what tim mendem has

619
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:09,600
for us this week

620
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:10,720
hi all

621
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:13,520
as we head towards skepticon 2022 in

622
00:24:17,909 --> 00:24:16,320
kambera a highlight of the annual event

623
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:17,919
is the announcement of the skeptical

624
00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:19,600
awards

625
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:21,760
and a highlight of the highlights is the

626
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,320
bent spoon awarded to the perpetrator of

627
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:26,159
the most preposterous piece of

628
00:24:30,549 --> 00:24:28,960
paranormal or pseudoscientific piffle of

629
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:30,559
the year

630
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:32,559
it's your chance to nominate your least

631
00:24:36,790 --> 00:24:34,559
favorite person for this dubious honor

632
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:36,800
so they can join the list of nominees

633
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:38,799
[Music]

634
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:40,480
in the meantime there's always the good

635
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:42,559
and the bad the happy and the sad news

636
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:44,880
from the skeptical world

637
00:24:48,620 --> 00:24:46,400
read on

638
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:48,630
okay tim will do just that

639
00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:55,669
australian skeptic news

640
00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:59,360
bent spoon award nominations now open

641
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:00,960
nominations are now open for the

642
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:03,360
australian skeptics bent spoon award one

643
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,960
of the least sought after credits in the

644
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:07,200
skeptical world or any world for that

645
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:08,080
matter

646
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:10,080
luminaries who have been past winners

647
00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:13,760
include palio pete evans twice

648
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:15,760
larry marshall head of the commonwealth

649
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:17,520
scientific and industrial research

650
00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:20,720
organization who is into water divining

651
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,320
former mp craig kelly

652
00:25:27,269 --> 00:25:25,120
r.m.i.t

653
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:27,279
judy wileyman and the university of

654
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:28,960
wollongong

655
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:33,120
merrill dorey and the avn are aka the av

656
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,159
sn

657
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:36,799
and now the av rn

658
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:38,960
the pharmacist of australia

659
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:45,269
if you would like to put someone forward

660
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:47,679
for this non-prestigious award then go

661
00:25:52,550 --> 00:25:49,279
to the bent spoon page at

662
00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:53,990
[Music]

663
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:56,799
avn appeal rejected

664
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:58,480
the federal court has rejected the

665
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:01,200
australian anti-vaccination network's

666
00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:03,520
appeal against a judgment that found it

667
00:26:06,789 --> 00:26:05,440
had no standing to represent members of

668
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:06,799
the community

669
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:09,600
a blow to its ego

670
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:11,360
see the background to the case in the

671
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:13,360
sample article from the june issue of

672
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:15,440
the skeptic

673
00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:18,159
but in this latest stage the judges who

674
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:20,000
handed down their judgment yesterday

675
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:22,640
reportedly found the case put forward

676
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:24,240
incompetent

677
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:26,320
we're not quite sure if that applied to

678
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:28,720
the case or the people putting it but

679
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:30,559
it's been an expensive lesson for the

680
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:33,840
avn which raised close to 650 000

681
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,000
through a campaign on the gives and go

682
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:38,640
christian crowdfunding site now there's

683
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:44,630
biorhythms and their influence on human

684
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:46,880
behavior

685
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,360
a chronobiologist looks at a trend from

686
00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:51,760
years gone by and doesn't welcome the

687
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,520
comparison with their own field

688
00:26:59,029 --> 00:26:57,520
alternative medicines that might

689
00:27:02,390 --> 00:26:59,039
actually work

690
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:02,400
isn't it called medicine then

691
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:05,360
edzard ernst a leading skeptic on altmed

692
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:08,720
or as he calls it so-called alternative

693
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:12,400
medicine or scam for short lists five

694
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:14,960
altmed products that might actually work

695
00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:17,520
we're not so sure some have been highly

696
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:19,360
criticized in the past

697
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,000
for the record they are st john's wort

698
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:24,640
tens machines glucosamine for cancer

699
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:27,360
melatonin for sleep and meditation for

700
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,880
lower back pain

701
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:30,960
but it's in the daily mail so it must be

702
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:33,200
true

703
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,510
the crux of the matter is plausible not

704
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:43,760
that nessie actually exists

705
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:45,600
researchers found the fossil of a

706
00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:47,919
plesiosaur in the sahara which indicates

707
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:50,799
that the presumed marine only reptile

708
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:54,000
might also have lived in fresh water

709
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:56,640
loch ness is fresh water so

710
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:58,480
hey presto

711
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:01,679
nitpicking note a plesiosaur is not a

712
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,559
dinosaur so don't start saying quote

713
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:06,320
there's a dinosaur in loch ness end

714
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:08,880
quote or for that matter that quote

715
00:28:12,370 --> 00:28:11,360
there's a loch ness monster in logness

716
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:12,380
end quote

717
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:14,720
[Music]

718
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:17,919
mysterious red glow over atlantic starts

719
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,240
panic

720
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:23,360
spoiler it's fishing boats much like the

721
00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:26,159
famed new zealand ufo scare in the late

722
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:27,200
1970s

723
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:29,279
[Music]

724
00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:31,679
the september issue of the skeptic

725
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,159
magazine is in the works with a major

726
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,240
look at the mysterious and often

727
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:38,880
secretive world of organized exorcism in

728
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:41,440
australia and not just from the catholic

729
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:42,399
church

730
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:44,720
plus the latest on our hall of fame for

731
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:47,120
all med practitioners dowsing priests

732
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:49,919
tidal waves and frogs

733
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:52,480
meanwhile there is still the june 2022

734
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:55,200
issue to look at or subscribe to a

735
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:57,200
sample article from that issue on the

736
00:29:01,149 --> 00:29:00,000
trials literally and tribulations of the

737
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:01,159
australian

738
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,360
anti-vaccination network can be read

739
00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:05,520
here and if you haven't subscribed yet

740
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,399
now is the time to do so

741
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:10,720
to subscribe to the skeptic go to our

742
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:12,799
shop to sign up for a hard copy or

743
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,600
digital edition or both the digital is

744
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:17,120
offered free to those who take up the

745
00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:23,029
items of interest

746
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:25,440
travel tip number one woohoo

747
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:26,290
ghosts

748
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:27,840
[Music]

749
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:32,640
america's first legally haunted house

750
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:34,960
that's not haunted by lawyers but a

751
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:36,960
property dispute that led to a court

752
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:38,720
case where the judge found that the

753
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:40,880
owner should have declared the victorian

754
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:43,919
era house haunted prior to a sale

755
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:45,919
the fact that the house is not far from

756
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:48,320
the sleepy hollow of headless rider fame

757
00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:50,240
surely means the ghost should not have

758
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,640
been a surprise

759
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:54,320
interestingly enough i learned about

760
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:57,279
this when i revamped the haunted house

761
00:30:01,990 --> 00:29:59,840
page on wikipedia so it's there check it

762
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,000
out

763
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:03,840
travel tip number two

764
00:30:12,070 --> 00:30:09,110
five haunted locations in south

765
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:12,080
australia ranging from a shop an arcade

766
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,480
an asylum and all the way up to two

767
00:30:18,710 --> 00:30:16,080
whole towns

768
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:18,720
no mention of the mall's balls however

769
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:20,320
does anyone else recall them being

770
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:22,480
called dony's balls after the former

771
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:25,600
premier dawn dunstan

772
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:27,520
travel tip number three

773
00:30:30,549 --> 00:30:28,880
you guessed it

774
00:30:34,389 --> 00:30:30,559
ghosts

775
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,399
hair-raising ghost tours in singapore

776
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:36,640
none of these look particularly scary to

777
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,360
us not even the walking tour of the ten

778
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:41,760
courts of hell in ha par villa the

779
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:43,760
tourist spot set up by the tiger bomb

780
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,840
man

781
00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:47,600
follow-up

782
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:54,310
[Music]

783
00:30:59,190 --> 00:30:56,559
last newsletter we mentioned the psychic

784
00:31:01,750 --> 00:30:59,200
who consults asparagus and got the uk

785
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:01,760
tory leadership winner wrong

786
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,080
well this time she picked the outcome of

787
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:06,480
the euro 2022 women's football

788
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:08,960
competition on a morning tv program

789
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:11,120
predicting the english team the

790
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:13,919
lionesses would defeat germany three to

791
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:15,039
two

792
00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:18,880
to one

793
00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:21,600
moral of the story you still can't trust

794
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,399
asparagus but the veggies seem to have a

795
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:26,640
greater affinity with soccer than

796
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:28,000
politics

797
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:30,799
second moral don't put sparromancers on

798
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:34,290
tv as a lot of viewers complained

799
00:31:39,530 --> 00:31:37,039
[Music]

800
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:39,540
back to silliest story of the week

801
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:40,720
[Music]

802
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,120
ghost hand in photo sparks debate

803
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:47,279
oh dear

804
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:49,600
lots of theories about this watery image

805
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,240
from believers to disbelievers but no

806
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:54,080
one puts forward the theory that seems

807
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:56,880
obvious to us a foot at the end of a

808
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:03,350
as an aside i will be talking about

809
00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:05,039
ghost photography at the australian

810
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:07,360
skeptics in the pub on august 25th i'm

811
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,360
really looking forward to it except that

812
00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:12,000
it is 3am my time

813
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,080
but i heard somewhere most likely not

814
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:16,159
from my doctor that sleep is highly

815
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:17,519
overrated

816
00:32:22,389 --> 00:32:20,240
so looking forward to seeing you

817
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:22,399
now the really silliest story of the

818
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:23,360
week

819
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,120
geller warns putin on nuclear weapons

820
00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:29,279
he really is suffering from attention

821
00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:32,159
deficit disorder or something

822
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:34,399
baine of the cutlery industry yuri

823
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:37,360
geller is saying he would use quote

824
00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:40,320
every last molecule of mind power end

825
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:42,799
quote to prevent the russian leader from

826
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:50,789
[Music]

827
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,120
he warns that quote your mission control

828
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:55,279
computers will crash your navigation

829
00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:57,760
systems will fail and your missiles will

830
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:00,799
malfunction end quote and china should

831
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:04,159
watch out as well ah phew glad that's

832
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:06,799
all sorted

833
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:09,120
well that's all for now this is adrian

834
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:11,039
hill signing off from the land of an

835
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:14,159
apparent 10 000 reward being offered for

836
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:16,640
proof of the existence of the sasquatch

837
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:19,600
which was posted in the year 1980 here

838
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:20,960
in calgary

839
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:23,440
how do i know this because tim mendom

840
00:33:30,980 --> 00:33:26,799
has a copy of this poster in australia

841
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:40,149
[Music]

842
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:42,000
bachelor of seance

843
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:46,240
that means you know how to constantly

844
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:48,000
keep in touch with those who've had to

845
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:50,880
go and how to summon up their spirits if

846
00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:52,640
they're slightly willing

847
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:54,880
and speak to the dead

848
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,600
why that really is quite thrilling

849
00:34:02,710 --> 00:33:59,760
does this gift which you have mean you

850
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:02,720
could talk to pets and do you do it via

851
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:05,519
the ether or through the media events

852
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:07,519
could you get in contact say with my

853
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,280
dear departed cat

854
00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:11,679
or having been once run over

855
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,079
is that the end of that

856
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:16,000
and what about my dog do you think you'd

857
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,240
hear him bark from that big doggy

858
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:21,119
playground the dead dog departed park

859
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:22,960
having made a connection could i be

860
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:25,200
absolutely sure that the dog you were

861
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:27,839
communing was the pet i'm finding for

862
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:29,839
i'm worried about the chance of the

863
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:32,320
wrong contact being made that you might

864
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:34,879
get a canine with which i never played

865
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:36,800
but someone else's pet which wouldn't

866
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:38,399
answer to my call

867
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:41,119
or perish the thought you'd get no dead

868
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:42,960
dog soul at all

869
00:34:48,310 --> 00:34:45,359
no i might just have to wait until i

870
00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:48,320
joined my past on pets it seems you

871
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:50,720
might be trying to lay off my psychic

872
00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:54,320
bits and as for my parents well although

873
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,159
you have that ticket

874
00:35:06,030 --> 00:34:58,400
i think the school was falling

875
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:16,390
[Music]

876
00:35:20,710 --> 00:35:18,310
now it's time once again to dive back

877
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,720
into those lovely digital archives from

878
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:22,560
around the world in the segment we call

879
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,960
trove because normally we're looking at

880
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:27,119
the australian archives of newspapers

881
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:29,119
and gazettes and magazines and journals

882
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:29,760
and

883
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:33,119
who knows what

884
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:34,720
this week this week we're going to be

885
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:36,960
looking again across the ocean to the

886
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:39,760
united states and we're concentrating on

887
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:42,320
a man i've met several times over over

888
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,400
the over the years professor rayheim

889
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:49,119
and according to wikipedia ray hyman

890
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,240
born in 1928 is professor emeritus of

891
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:54,800
psychology at the university of oregon

892
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:58,400
in eugene oregon and a noted critic of

893
00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:00,320
parapsychology

894
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:02,480
hyman along with james randy martin

895
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:04,720
garner and paul kurtz is one of the

896
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:06,240
founders of the modern skeptical

897
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:07,359
movement

898
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,040
he is the founder and leader of the

899
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:11,520
skeptic's toolbox hyman serves on the

900
00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:14,240
executive council for the committee for

901
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:16,000
skeptical inquiry

902
00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:19,280
it goes on to say that aside from his uh

903
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:21,599
scholarly publications and consultation

904
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:23,280
with the us department of defense and

905
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,079
scrutinizing psychic research one of his

906
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:28,480
most popular articles is 13 points to

907
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:31,200
help you quote amaze your friends with

908
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,359
your newfound psychic powers end quote a

909
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:35,040
guide to cold reading

910
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:38,000
hyman retired in 1998 but continues to

911
00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:40,160
give talks and investigate paranormal

912
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:42,960
claims in july 2009 he appeared at the

913
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:45,599
amazing meeting 7 in las vegas

914
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:48,079
indeed that's where i think i met ray

915
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:49,680
for the first time

916
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:54,160
also in 2011 and 2012.

917
00:37:03,430 --> 00:36:55,040
and

918
00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:03,440
works of ray hyman it's quite extensive

919
00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:05,200
of course he was an early and noted

920
00:37:09,109 --> 00:37:06,320
critic

921
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:09,119
of such people as urigela

922
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:10,880
and whenever i think about ray hyman of

923
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:13,839
course i am reminded of hyman's maxim

924
00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:15,040
which goes

925
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:18,079
along the lines of do not try to explain

926
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:20,640
something until you are sure

927
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:23,520
there is something to be explained

928
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:26,160
and this is a very solid um

929
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:27,200
guide

930
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:28,079
in

931
00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:34,240
now this means that you don't waste time

932
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,119
trying to explain something if the event

933
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:39,440
you're trying to explain might not ever

934
00:37:42,630 --> 00:37:41,200
have happened if somebody comes to you

935
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:42,640
and says how do you explain the fact

936
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:45,280
that water diviners find water with 100

937
00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:46,720
accuracy

938
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:48,079
well of course you have to establish

939
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:50,240
first of all that water diviners can

940
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,800
find water with 100 accuracy since

941
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:54,640
that's not been established

942
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:56,560
you don't have to explain it

943
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:58,000
if somebody says to you how do you

944
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,400
explain the fact that airline pilots see

945
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:02,160
alien spaceships all the time well first

946
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:03,599
you have to establish that airline

947
00:38:07,510 --> 00:38:04,640
pilots

948
00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:07,520
do see alien spaceships then and only

949
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:08,800
then

950
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:12,320
so it can save a lot of time

951
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:15,200
here's a clip of ray hyman

952
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:17,599
in the early 90s when he appeared on a

953
00:38:23,810 --> 00:38:19,839
james randy special called

954
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,800
[Applause]

955
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:26,880
[Music]

956
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:29,839
needless to say my message isn't always

957
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:31,200
popular

958
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:33,760
my friend ray hyman is a psychologist

959
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:36,079
and he has an idea why

960
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:37,280
we seem to be

961
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:38,960
taken as we're taking something away and

962
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:40,960
not giving something in return and these

963
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:42,320
people want something they're looking

964
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:44,000
for something and i think we have to

965
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:45,359
understand what is it they're searching

966
00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:47,520
for and what they're seeking

967
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:49,520
ray has an insider's perspective on

968
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,520
these questions he once worked as a

969
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:53,920
professional palm reader

970
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:56,000
on a recent visit to florida he allowed

971
00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:58,240
me to observe while he gave readings to

972
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:03,270
now i want to look at a few other things

973
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:04,960
before we go very far look at your thumb

974
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:06,720
it's the most important ray started

975
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:08,480
reading palms to help put himself

976
00:39:11,829 --> 00:39:09,760
through college there's a little

977
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:11,839
narrowing of the second joint here

978
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:13,440
that's that's tack that's just

979
00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:15,200
tactfulness

980
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,200
at the time he was convinced there was

981
00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:19,440
nothing to it this is the spiritual

982
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:22,560
mental i had no belief that would work

983
00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:24,400
but to be convincing i did read the

984
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:26,320
books and i did study the lines the way

985
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:29,359
and told it as it's supposed to be told

986
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:32,320
and to my surprise it worked business

987
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:34,160
and then it became a very rapid believer

988
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,160
in palm reading

989
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:38,000
there is a break in your lifeline this

990
00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:39,760
is your lifeline right here

991
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:42,160
so you've had some physical problems you

992
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:43,839
still may have some problems here some

993
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:45,760
medical problems of some sort

994
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:47,440
he was right about that

995
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:50,079
that i had had some health problems

996
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:51,839
is there anything there about my mother

997
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:57,829
the one thing that the thing is clear is

998
00:40:01,990 --> 00:40:00,160
that uh right from the beginning you

999
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:02,000
didn't want to be dominated by her you

1000
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:03,760
want to make it for your own mind about

1001
00:40:06,150 --> 00:40:05,200
what your life is going to be like and

1002
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:06,160
so on

1003
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:07,599
i have been very headstrong when it

1004
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:10,720
comes to my mother she has kind of tried

1005
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:12,720
to dominate me sometimes and i've

1006
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:14,240
rebelled against it

1007
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:15,920
at the same time you wanted to be you

1008
00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:17,680
wanted to be on your own terms and stuff

1009
00:40:20,069 --> 00:40:18,880
like that

1010
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:20,079
he was pretty right on the money with a

1011
00:40:23,910 --> 00:40:21,440
lot of things

1012
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,920
maybe he's got some part to himself that

1013
00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:25,520
others are not in touch with and he

1014
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:27,200
knows these things learned about the

1015
00:40:31,109 --> 00:40:29,040
relationship between your mother and

1016
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,119
yourself as a palm reader ray was quite

1017
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:33,599
successful i was saying then a college

1018
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,520
friend bet him that he would do just as

1019
00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:37,200
well if he told his subjects the

1020
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:40,319
opposite of what he read in their palms

1021
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:43,119
he decided to give it a try

1022
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:43,920
and

1023
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:48,079
didn't say where she had no reaction at

1024
00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:49,520
all which was very spooky to me because

1025
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:52,240
i'm used to feedback

1026
00:40:55,750 --> 00:40:54,400
i thought it was because i bombed

1027
00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:55,760
but it turned out because she was so

1028
00:41:00,390 --> 00:40:58,640
stunned i was so accurate

1029
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:00,400
and this was really a shock to me

1030
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:02,400
because i had done everything wrong so i

1031
00:41:05,109 --> 00:41:03,839
did it the next client wrong then i

1032
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:05,119
realized it doesn't make any difference

1033
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,200
what you tell them it's

1034
00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:09,839
more what you convince them how good you

1035
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:13,359
are and what you get them to believe

1036
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:15,520
as a professional psychologist ray is

1037
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:17,760
very much aware of the role that careful

1038
00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:20,480
observation can play in a reading

1039
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:22,560
you're living in a strange world you'd

1040
00:41:28,309 --> 00:41:25,119
be better if you're living

1041
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:28,319
maybe 50 40 years ago in some ways

1042
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:29,920
i've always said that i should have been

1043
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:32,640
born a long time ago this

1044
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:34,640
present world is is

1045
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:36,240
presents problems for you and you're not

1046
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,839
too happy with it

1047
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,280
from the way she was dressed and so i

1048
00:41:43,349 --> 00:41:41,520
could say that she'd rather be living in

1049
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:43,359
an earlier time than today in fact she

1050
00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:45,760
was dressed for an earlier time anyway

1051
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:47,920
there's a change there has been there

1052
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:49,680
for a while looked like you had two jobs

1053
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:51,920
or two careers i'm not sure

1054
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:54,319
and uh very recently you have switched

1055
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:55,920
in fact there's been a major career

1056
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:56,960
change

1057
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:59,200
um i've been in the same career for six

1058
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:00,640
years

1059
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:02,640
next year i'm thinking about changing

1060
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:05,359
careers but i haven't done it yet so he

1061
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:08,720
could just be a little off in his timing

1062
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:10,640
if you set people up right you can tell

1063
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:11,280
them

1064
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:12,800
anything if they really got a creative

1065
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:14,400
and intelligent mind they can make sense

1066
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:16,240
out of no matter how crazy it seems to

1067
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:18,560
be they can find a way of of

1068
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,640
reinterpreting it so it really fits them

1069
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:22,960
like a glove

1070
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:25,680
this person wants me to succeed i should

1071
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:33,349
but now let's turn to some newspaper

1072
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:35,920
reports and items that mention ray hyman

1073
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:38,640
over the years

1074
00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:44,630
and our first port of call our first

1075
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,319
newspaper we find is the alton telegraph

1076
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:49,839
dated the

1077
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:52,800
4th of february 1988

1078
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:54,480
and this is in the section called

1079
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:59,359
entertainment debunker visits s-i-u-e

1080
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:01,680
mentalist ray hyman will take a critical

1081
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,240
look at psychics and scientists in a 7

1082
00:43:09,829 --> 00:43:07,040
30 pm discussion monday at southern

1083
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:09,839
illinois university at edwardsville

1084
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:12,079
hyman a psychology professor at the

1085
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,119
university of oregon is concerned with

1086
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:18,079
the question of why human beings tend to

1087
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:21,119
readily accept supernatural explanations

1088
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:23,520
for what is often natural occurrences in

1089
00:43:28,710 --> 00:43:26,319
the universe the professor has produced

1090
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:28,720
30 publications critically evaluating

1091
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:32,000
parapsychology and related claims and is

1092
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:33,599
one of the founders of the committee for

1093
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:35,680
the scientific investigation of claims

1094
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:38,319
of the paranormal hyman is also on the

1095
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:40,400
editorial board of the group's journal

1096
00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:43,520
the skeptical inquirer the lecture with

1097
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:45,760
demonstrations magic tricks and

1098
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:48,960
experiments to illustrate points is in

1099
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:51,520
the communications building theater it

1100
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:53,680
is the second in a series of magic

1101
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:56,480
science and society presented by the

1102
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:00,640
siue department of biological sciences

1103
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:02,880
tickets are free but seating is

1104
00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:05,440
restricted to 400 tickets may be

1105
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:07,240
obtained in room

1106
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:08,880
1330

1107
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:11,280
of the science building by calling

1108
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:19,309
or by writing to the siue at box

1109
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:22,800
1651 edwardsville illinois

1110
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:28,150
i would have loved to have been there

1111
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:29,760
for that presentation

1112
00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:32,400
way back in 1988

1113
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:34,000
and the accompanying photograph looks

1114
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:36,880
like a publicity photograph of ray hyman

1115
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:38,960
ray hyman promises the truth behind

1116
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:41,280
psychic phenomena and he's sort of got a

1117
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,240
strange um rope as if he's about to do a

1118
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:45,920
conjuring trick

1119
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:47,920
and now we turn to the pages of the

1120
00:44:54,430 --> 00:44:50,720
arlington heights daily herald suburban

1121
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,440
chicago dated the 24th of october

1122
00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:56,240
1995.

1123
00:45:03,030 --> 00:44:59,200
in a section called dowsing for the dead

1124
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:03,040
unearths a controversy by bert constable

1125
00:45:09,750 --> 00:45:07,520
six old graves that's what i detected as

1126
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,760
i methodically walk the width and

1127
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:12,240
breadth of this lone empty lot in

1128
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:15,040
schaumburg's timber crest subdivision

1129
00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:17,119
while carrying two wire coat hangers

1130
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:18,880
i've fashioned into

1131
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:21,200
witching sticks the wires bent into the

1132
00:45:25,710 --> 00:45:23,040
shapes of pistols with extra long

1133
00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:25,720
barrels and held parallel to the ground

1134
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:28,720
mysteriously cross whenever i step over

1135
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:30,160
a grave

1136
00:45:37,270 --> 00:45:33,520
yep this is definitely the final resting

1137
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:37,280
place for six long dead suburbanites

1138
00:45:43,109 --> 00:45:40,000
either that or i found a half dozen

1139
00:45:45,109 --> 00:45:43,119
cable tv hookups i'm not sure because

1140
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:45,119
i'm just a novice when it comes to the

1141
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:48,880
art of dowsing for dead bodies

1142
00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:51,280
and witching sticks also known as

1143
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,599
dowsing rods or divining rods are the

1144
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:55,920
best way to find old graves says donald

1145
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,560
grenky past president of the illinois

1146
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:00,720
cemetery association i've done it

1147
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:03,119
hundreds of times greinke says i've been

1148
00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:05,760
in this business for well over 40 years

1149
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:08,160
now believe me it works the people of

1150
00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:11,280
schaumburg want to find out if there are

1151
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:13,839
bodies buried in this lot before anyone

1152
00:46:17,430 --> 00:46:15,520
builds a home there

1153
00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:17,440
communities have brought him to locate

1154
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:19,280
old graves and

1155
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,079
they were all exactly where we said they

1156
00:46:26,069 --> 00:46:24,160
were he boasts

1157
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:26,079
he even brought a fancy set of witching

1158
00:46:32,069 --> 00:46:29,440
sticks made of metal rods floating in

1159
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:32,079
wooden handles we have had our set for

1160
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:35,280
25 years says grenkey who runs a funeral

1161
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:37,359
home in cemetery in belvedere near

1162
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:38,720
rockford

1163
00:46:43,349 --> 00:46:40,720
dowsing historically refers to people

1164
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:43,359
who claim to use fork sticks

1165
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:45,920
limbs from fruit trees and willows are

1166
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:49,119
the twigs of choice to find water some

1167
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:51,839
folks still hire a dowser to locate the

1168
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:54,960
best spot to dig a well says brenda

1169
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:57,920
paquin director of the american society

1170
00:47:01,829 --> 00:47:00,640
of dowsers at danville vermont but

1171
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:01,839
dowsing

1172
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:03,359
paquin adds

1173
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:05,440
is not just for water

1174
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:06,400
nope

1175
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:09,280
dowsing is just for the superstitious

1176
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:12,800
insists skeptic ray hyman professor of

1177
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:14,880
psychology at the university of oregon

1178
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:16,640
and author of the book

1179
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,040
water witching usa

1180
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:21,200
all good studies show that dowsers can't

1181
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:23,200
do what they say they can do

1182
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:24,720
hyman says

1183
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:27,760
it's nothing more than a random device

1184
00:47:34,270 --> 00:47:30,720
the national ground water association in

1185
00:47:36,829 --> 00:47:34,280
columbus ohio used to sell

1186
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:36,839
anti-dowsing t-shirts with the

1187
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,559
international no symbol over a dowser

1188
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:42,640
but the group has mellowed in recent

1189
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:44,720
years and now looks

1190
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:47,200
upon dowsing as nothing more than

1191
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:50,000
a harmless superstition says anita

1192
00:47:54,790 --> 00:47:51,920
stanley a publisher with groundwater

1193
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,800
publishing still she adds

1194
00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:56,960
we'd contend you'd be better off

1195
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:59,440
contacting a professional contractor

1196
00:48:04,710 --> 00:48:01,599
than to pay someone to walk around with

1197
00:48:08,069 --> 00:48:04,720
a fork stick while hyman says dowsers

1198
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:08,079
seem to be a sincere bunch who believe

1199
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:09,280
in the art

1200
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:11,280
the movement of the sticks is nothing

1201
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:14,000
more than quote idiom motor action end

1202
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:16,640
quote that means dowsers move the rods

1203
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:19,359
themselves unconsciously i put the

1204
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:22,640
handle end of my rods in empty cardboard

1205
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:25,599
toilet rolls to assure that my hands

1206
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,400
don't touch the wires but hyman says i

1207
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:30,480
still manipulate the rods by moving my

1208
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:32,960
hands when the rods are suspended from

1209
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:35,200
wires without anyone touching them they

1210
00:48:40,870 --> 00:48:38,880
never cross over graves hymen notes

1211
00:48:43,910 --> 00:48:40,880
grenkey counters hyman's logic by

1212
00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:43,920
suggesting the human carrying the sticks

1213
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:47,359
adds an integral element to the process

1214
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:50,559
not everybody can use them cranky says

1215
00:48:55,910 --> 00:48:53,520
recalling how one skeptical employee

1216
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:55,920
couldn't even get the rods to cross over

1217
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:59,119
marked graves cranky who lives next to

1218
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:00,559
his cemetery

1219
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:02,880
says he's never had any psychic

1220
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:04,720
experiences with ghosts or the

1221
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,359
supernatural isn't superstitious and

1222
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:09,440
doesn't care about electromagnetic

1223
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:12,079
fields or a college professor debunking

1224
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,480
his use of witching sticks no one has

1225
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:16,559
really made a big deal out of how it

1226
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:19,200
works frankie says you're a believer

1227
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:21,680
after you've used them and finally we go

1228
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:25,440
to the year 1994 the 4th of december

1229
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:27,359
in a journal called

1230
00:49:32,549 --> 00:49:31,520
brazosport facts in the section seen and

1231
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:32,559
heard

1232
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:36,319
and this is a story by chao ki davidson

1233
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:38,559
printed originally in the san francisco

1234
00:49:42,630 --> 00:49:39,839
examiner

1235
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,640
haunted deep fryer high jinks amongst

1236
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:44,480
the toys entice

1237
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:46,240
ghost hunters

1238
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:48,480
every day is halloween for today's ghost

1239
00:49:54,069 --> 00:49:51,280
hunters professional ghost hunting isn't

1240
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:54,079
the lucrative business it was in the

1241
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:56,400
bill murray comedy ghostbusters the

1242
00:50:02,870 --> 00:49:59,839
heyday of scientific phantasm chasing

1243
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,880
past a century ago yet a handful of true

1244
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:04,880
believers still lug magnetometers

1245
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:07,040
infrared cameras video cameras and other

1246
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:10,319
gadgets through spooky places where they

1247
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:12,880
investigate the oddest things

1248
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:15,680
a haunted deep fryer at a japanese

1249
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:18,400
restaurant in rome georgia a female

1250
00:50:22,549 --> 00:50:21,440
ghost who supposedly frequents a moss

1251
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:22,559
beach

1252
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:25,599
california restaurant a case of spectral

1253
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:28,400
hijinks at a sunnyvale california toy

1254
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:31,920
store maybe physical reality isn't as we

1255
00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:33,440
define it today

1256
00:50:39,589 --> 00:50:36,400
says prominent national ghostbuster and

1257
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:39,599
author lloyd albach of pleasant hill but

1258
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:42,160
i would need 24th century technology to

1259
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:44,480
figure out what's really going on and

1260
00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:46,720
right behind the ghost hunters

1261
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,240
are the skeptics who take delight in

1262
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:52,480
finding mundane explanations for

1263
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:55,040
allegedly supernatural phenomena for

1264
00:51:02,069 --> 00:50:57,760
example in exposing a quote spirit

1265
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:02,079
photograph in quote as crude fakery or

1266
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:05,760
quote ghostly in quote voices as rusty

1267
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:08,880
pipes or eerie footsteps as vibrations

1268
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:11,359
from the staircase next door

1269
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,160
i was just asked to give advice for a

1270
00:51:19,030 --> 00:51:16,480
court trial in new jersey said

1271
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:19,040
university of oregon psychology

1272
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:20,880
professor ray hyman

1273
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:24,480
a veteran critic of parapsychology and

1274
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:26,640
skeptic about ghosts

1275
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,839
people who bought a house are suing the

1276
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:31,920
previous owners for not telling them it

1277
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,280
was haunted modern ghost hunting is the

1278
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:37,920
faint embers of a 19th century cultural

1279
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:41,040
firestorm called spiritualism back then

1280
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:43,359
mediums were the rage and society's blue

1281
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:46,319
bloods from esteemed scientists to

1282
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:48,880
acclaimed politicians sat in dark

1283
00:51:53,670 --> 00:51:51,760
seances holding hands and hoping the

1284
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:53,680
spirits would speak

1285
00:51:58,790 --> 00:51:56,400
but the spiritualist age ended in a

1286
00:52:01,270 --> 00:51:58,800
flurry of exposes

1287
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:01,280
the magician harry houdini and other

1288
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:03,680
skeptics exposed phony mediums and the

1289
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:05,920
two pioneers of spiritualism the

1290
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:08,800
so-called fox sisters admitted they had

1291
00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:11,599
faked spook sounds by cracking their

1292
00:52:17,190 --> 00:52:14,640
joints nowadays ghost hunting and

1293
00:52:19,950 --> 00:52:17,200
afterlife research has been largely

1294
00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:19,960
banished to the fringes or beyond of

1295
00:52:26,230 --> 00:52:23,200
parapsychology the so-called science of

1296
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:26,240
psychic phenomena which is itself

1297
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:29,440
scorned by many mainstream researchers

1298
00:52:34,790 --> 00:52:32,400
yet even today ghosts retain a hold on

1299
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:34,800
the modern heart witness the hyper

1300
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:37,599
success of films such as ghost and

1301
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:40,480
ghostbusters i saw a poll recently that

1302
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:44,000
said that 75 of students believe in god

1303
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:47,839
and 72 believe in ghosts hyman said

1304
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:50,720
our bach often finds orthodox

1305
00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:53,280
explanations for spook sightings right

1306
00:52:58,390 --> 00:52:56,480
after the 1989 earthquake i received

1307
00:53:01,750 --> 00:52:58,400
calls from dozens of people who said

1308
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:01,760
objects had moved in their homes i found

1309
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:04,559
that in many cases the cause wasn't what

1310
00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:07,359
you would think the quake itself but the

1311
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:10,960
traffic changes in the city caused by

1312
00:53:16,470 --> 00:53:13,520
downed freeways and bridges i told

1313
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:16,480
people right after an object moves look

1314
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:18,880
outside your window and see if a truck

1315
00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:22,319
just rumbled by albach 38

1316
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:23,440
who by

1317
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:27,200
day is a senior instructor for the lexus

1318
00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:30,240
nexus database service also has

1319
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:32,559
investigated a purportedly haunted toy

1320
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:34,960
store in sunnyvale and came away

1321
00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:37,119
doubting anything odd was going on

1322
00:53:41,910 --> 00:53:39,440
but he's impressed by the accounts of a

1323
00:53:44,309 --> 00:53:41,920
ghost at moss beach distillery a

1324
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:44,319
cliffside restaurant on highway 1 south

1325
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:46,800
of san francisco that was once featured

1326
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:50,559
in tv's unsolved mysteries our bach took

1327
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:53,440
a magnetometer into the restaurant which

1328
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:56,400
overlooks the pacific and claims that

1329
00:54:02,790 --> 00:53:59,040
something nature unknown

1330
00:54:06,069 --> 00:54:02,800
was disrupting the device

1331
00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:06,079
ironically albacht is friends with bob

1332
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,800
steiner a nationally known magician who

1333
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:10,720
is also a founder of the bay area

1334
00:54:19,190 --> 00:54:12,880
skeptics a group that did lights in

1335
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:22,630
well there we are just a few a few

1336
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:25,040
references to ray hyman in newspapers

1337
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:26,720
over the years there are more i have

1338
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:29,040
discovered more quite lengthy articles

1339
00:54:33,109 --> 00:54:30,240
which

1340
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:33,119
mention ray hyman here and there there's

1341
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:35,359
one very interesting one about yuri

1342
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,799
gellar from 1977 which mentions ray

1343
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:40,000
hyman

1344
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:41,040
and this

1345
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:41,839
uh

1346
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:43,839
this one is written by a psychic which

1347
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:46,079
is very strange but anyway that's a very

1348
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:48,160
lengthy article and only mentions ray

1349
00:54:52,710 --> 00:54:50,319
hyman in part of it

1350
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,720
maybe next time i'm up in oregon i might

1351
00:54:56,309 --> 00:54:54,960
have the chance or make the opportunity

1352
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:56,319
to once again

1353
00:55:00,950 --> 00:54:59,280
meet up with professor ray hyman

1354
00:55:02,150 --> 00:55:00,960
but no matter where you are in the world

1355
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:02,160
you can take advantage of the

1356
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:04,000
interesting resources

1357
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:07,520
at trove at trove.nla

1358
00:55:10,789 --> 00:55:08,480
or

1359
00:55:13,270 --> 00:55:10,799
your own local digitized newspapers

1360
00:55:17,460 --> 00:55:13,280
because you never know what you might

1361
00:55:17,470 --> 00:55:31,349
[Music]

1362
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:32,950
thank you for listening to the skeptic's

1363
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:34,559
own podcast

1364
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:36,480
coming up on next week's show the book

1365
00:55:41,589 --> 00:55:39,680
of tim will look at micro nations these

1366
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:41,599
are these funny little principalities

1367
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:42,319
and

1368
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:45,280
countries that uh people set up they

1369
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:47,440
have no real legal standing but they can

1370
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,880
be a lot of fun

1371
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:50,319
i hope to bring you that report about

1372
00:55:53,670 --> 00:55:52,240
the mind body wallet the mind body

1373
00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:53,680
spirit

1374
00:55:57,030 --> 00:55:55,520
in the trove segment we're going to be

1375
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:57,040
looking at the min min light that

1376
00:56:02,470 --> 00:55:59,760
mysterious light and also another poem

1377
00:56:03,829 --> 00:56:02,480
by jim wilshere all about the min min

1378
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:03,839
light

1379
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:04,799
and

1380
00:56:09,589 --> 00:56:07,040
also don't forget as adrian mentioned in

1381
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:09,599
her reading of the skeptics newsletter

1382
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:11,680
adrian hill will be our guest on the

1383
00:56:16,150 --> 00:56:14,079
25th of this month

1384
00:56:18,309 --> 00:56:16,160
uh in the evening here sydney australian

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time for skeptics in the pub of course

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that's online so no matter where you are

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around the world you can tune in and

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join us for uh adrian hill talking about

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ghosts thank you to those people who

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continue to support the skeptic zone at

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00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:33,040
skepticzone.tv by your

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00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:34,319
patreon

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00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:37,280
or your paypal micropayments it means

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the show keeps going

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00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:41,520
but now it's time for me to keep going

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and i'll

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i'll be back next week so for now this

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is richard saunders signing off from

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you've been listening to the skeptic

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00:56:57,829 --> 00:56:56,400
zone podcast

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00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:57,839
please visit our website at

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00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:04,069
for show notes contacts and to access

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00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:06,640
the back catalog of episodes going back

1404
00:57:10,789 --> 00:57:08,799
to 2008.

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00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:10,799
you can follow the skepticzone podcast

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00:57:15,670 --> 00:57:13,520
on twitter at skepticzone

1407
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:15,680
visit our facebook page or leave a

1408
00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:17,920
review on itunes

1409
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:20,079
you can also support the skeptic zone

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00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:23,280
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

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00:57:28,230 --> 00:57:26,400
podcast is an independent production

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00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:28,240
the views and opinions expressed on the

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00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:30,559
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

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00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:33,040
of australian skeptics or any other